Allie Lemco Toren:  Well, thank you so much for giving us your time and we're so excited to be talking with you.

Ray Holman: It took a while, didn't it, to get here?

Allie: It did. But I think this time it worked out.

Chrissie: You're a busy man.

Allie: Yeah.

Chrissie: It took a pandemic to pin down Ray Holman.

Ray Holman: It did, to lock me down. It was mad because obviously when we first were about to do it  [the interview], I suddenly got that nomination in LA and I had to go to LA And so that took a week of my time to doing stuff there. And then came back and started working on the new production. So it was busy.

Allie: Yeah!

Chrissie: How was L.A?

Allie: Yeah.

Ray Holman: How was what?

Chrissie: How was LA? Because you said you hadn't been there before.

Ray Holman: Oh, LA was brilliant. I've never... Whenever I've been to America, I've been to San Francisco or New York or Florida. And I... Because of the industry I work in I just thought, oh, I don't really know if I want to go there ever. I'd rather not. But I was excited to go. And I had the best time.

Allie: Oh that's so great.

Ray Holman: And I have a little Fleabag story. Should I tell you this stupid fleabag story? Well-

Chrissie: There's no such thing.

Allie: Yeah, we're here for it!

Ray Holman: On the first day, I was staying in the Beverly Hilton Hotel because the costume awards have a kind of... You have a discount there. So we stayed there for a week. Which was brilliant. And on the first morning there, I decided to kind of make sure I knew where everything was in LA, and ground myself. So I booked onto like a quick six hours, a quick tour of LA to see where things were in relation to each other. And there were two other couples on our mini bus. And I think they were from the Midwest. And one woman said to me, what do you do? So I said. And why are you in America? And I said, because I've been nominated for a Costume Designers Guild Award. And she said, what for? I said, for Fleabag. And she did the whole, oh my God. Wow. Wow. How amazing.

Ray Holman: And then this other lady got on. And the other woman said to her, he's been nominated for a costume award for Fleabag. And the other woman said to me, is that the TV show that ridicules the Catholic Church?

Chrissie: Oh God.

Ray Holman: And I'm kind of like, well... It doesn't, no. It's a love story between two sisters.

Allie: There you go.

Ray Holman: Could look at it that way.

Chrissie: Absolutely.

Allie: I agree.

Ray Holman: I'm on this mini bus all day with this woman. Turned out to be the sweetest person. She was lovely. And I think I even got round to persuading her to watch it.

Allie: See that's the thing. She just had to watch it and then she'd know.

Ray Holman: Yeah. Because she said she thought he was anti-Catholic.

Allie: Oh no.

Ray Holman: Wow.

Chrissie: I actually was surprised that didn't get more pushback from the church. Well, but I think because people know the story, even the story between her and the priest is told very respectfully. To me it never mocks the church.

Ray Holman: No. It was never meant to mock the church. It's about human beings.

Chrissie: Exactly.

Ray Holman: So it is about love. But I can imagine if you haven't seen it, it's so easy to say, oh, that series mocks the Catholic Church. It doesn't at all. It's the opposite.

Allie: Yeah.

Chrissie: I agree. Yeah. Preaching to the choir, as they say.

Ray Holman: That was my first day in L.A. Like just thought, oh my goodness.

Allie: Here we go.

Chrissie: Welcome to America.

Allie: Yeah.

Ray Holman: Yeah.

Allie: Oh goodness. Well thank you for... That's a great little tidbit. I'm glad the rest of your trip was fun too.

Ray Holman: Oh, that was good too. The awards were great. And we didn't win. But didn't expect really to win. Was quite surprised. And Jonathan [Paul Green] was quite surprised that he was there as well. We were like... It's quite well known how little time and money we had. So we were both really thrilled. And Jonathan and I met up while we were in LA to have coffee and stuff, so that was good.

Chrissie: So fun. It sounds like that was just such a whirlwind for all of you.

Ray Holman: Yeah, it was good. So fantastic for Phoebe [Waller-Bridge].

Allie: Oh yeah.

Chrissie: I'll say.

Allie: Absolutely.

Ray Holman: Yeah.

Allie: Well that must seem like five years ago. Does that seem like a different, like a lifetime ago?

Ray Holman: Yes, it does. Yeah, it does. I mean, the one thing I will say is that what it did for me, going to LA was it... It was January. So I mean at least I can say I had a holiday this year.

Allie: That is true.

Ray Holman: So because once this is over I have a feeling that I will be... I don't know what will happen because all my projects will overlap. So it'll all get very busy. Like it does get busy again.

Allie: So 2021...

Ray Holman: Doom and gloom.

Allie: Well, so how, how are you? How have you been doing? I guess we spoke to you about two weeks ago. But now we're really in it. How are things?

Ray Holman: Oh no, it's fine. I'm lucky because I've got a garden. So you probably, I don't know, sometimes I put things on Twitter. Sometimes I don't on Twitter because it's such a big... The Twitter account, even though it's a personal account, it's become a base. A fan base kind of account for programs I designed. So there's lots of Doctor Who, lots of Fleabag fans that are there. So I have mixed feelings on different days about what private things I should put there. But, I've, yeah... But good. I've got a garden which is great. Which is keeping me sane.

Allie: Yeah. To go outside. I'm sorry, Chrissie, what?

Chrissie: My audio dropped for a second. So are you guys talking about...

Ray Holman: We're talking about my garden.

Chrissie: Yeah. I love it.

Ray Holman: What I put on Twitter and what I don't.

Allie: I don't think anyone's figured that out. That's a fine line.

Chrissie: Well and we all have such a... Go ahead.

Ray Holman: That's a personal thing. Yeah. Because some days I'm like, oh yeah, let's just put the garden on Twitter another day. And other days I'm like, no, that's me. That's my personal life. And I shouldn't do that.

Chrissie: Yeah. Yeah.

Allie: So we are similar in that we are both gluten free.

Ray Holman: Oh yeah.. Did you see my post? I did some baking yesterday.

Allie: Oh, I missed it. What did you make?

Ray Holman: So I made, because we had some, some overripe bananas. So I made some banana bread, gluten-free banana bread. And it was my first time having a go at it. So it was really good. The thing that's different for you and for me is that in America all the recipes say cup sizes. And in the UK, we're pounds and ounces and grams. So I prefer to do a UK recipe. But I did it and it and it worked out really well. And the thing was I only used lockdown ingredients because it's really, it's quite hard to get gluten-free flour for some reason. I don't know why. I'm not quite sure. But speaking to a friend earlier on, on the phone, she’s a costume maker and she's in London. And she phoned me, she said, I can only buy gluten-free flour. And I said, well, you're the lucky one.

Allie: Like can you ship that to me?

Ray Holman: So that's why I get to use all the ingredients in the larder.

Allie: Yes. That's what I've been doing. Getting very creative at this point. I think we did something... We've been doing... I had like a lot of buckwheat flour for some reason.

Ray Holman: Oh, I like buckwheat.

Allie: Yeah, me too.

Ray Holman: Yeah. And BeckyXL she's very... On social media in the UK She's a blogger. And she does gluten-free. But she does, she does quite a lot of sweet things. So because I'm a long term or I've been celiac for a long time, I have to try and avoid eating the bad food. Because there's that thing of... Because you can't eat cakes. you make lots of cakes now.

Allie: It's not like it's good for you just because it doesn't have that gluten. It's not good. It's not healthy.

Chrissie: Sugar is gluten-free.

Allie: Right.

Ray Holman: Gluten-free food is probably worse for you because just some of it's more processed.

Allie: Yep. And there's like the gums and the fat. They have to make it try to make it taste good.

Ray Holman: So you've just got to be careful. I think it's good to bake at home. I've got a bread maker. That hasn't come out yet. It's about to come out though.

Chrissie: I've heard people who've been joking about that. Like suddenly everybody's talking about their sourdough starters. And they're like, why is this-

Ray Holman: Yes, a friend sent me a message yesterday saying, can you eat sourdough? And I was like, I don't know. Might find out too.

Allie: Right. Well maybe we'll get there.

Ray Holman: Yeah.

Allie: Oh goodness. Well, I would love that banana bread recipe.

Ray Holman: It's really simple. It's only like six ingredients. And you can be really, really imaginative. So I had bananas. And I put in some dates from Christmas. I cut up some dates. And I put some cinnamon in it. Some chocolate chips.

Chrissie: Man. Stacking the deck.

Ray Holman: I went a bit overboard.

Allie: That sounds excellent.

Ray Holman: I think it was really nice. Well it's still really nice. I've eaten some of it.

Allie: Props that you didn't just finish it in one go.

Ray Holman: Well it's a treat.

Allie: Yeah, that's what I'm telling myself. And then I eat it all and it's still a treat.

Ray Holman: I learned because I have a big huge bag of chia seeds that you can substitute eggs with the chia seeds.

Chrissie: Right.

Ray Holman: Soak them. So I didn't do that because I had some eggs. But I might do that next time because I have this huge, huge bag of chia seeds.

Allie: No flour but tons of chia seeds.

Ray Holman: Yeah. So there we are.

Allie: Well that is good to hear. Well, Let's talk Fleabag… or more specifically you first. We're curious how you got started in costume design. I know we talked about this a little in the Q&A with our Facebook group a couple of weeks ago. But if you could share again for our listeners, that would be great.

Ray Holman: What was the question again?

Allie: Oh, how did you get started in costume design?

Ray Holman: Okay, so it's quite a strange story in that... I'll tell you another story after I've told this story. Because I come from the South Wales Valleys. And the South Wales Valleys are mainly made out of up of mining towns and coal mining. And it's quite industrial, or used to be quite industrial. And I was born in the '60s. And I was leaving school in the late seventies/early eighties and I was quite shy. But I had a drama teacher who taught me to speak in public and tried to raise my confidence. And so I went, I applied to go to... Well, you'll laugh at this actually. I applied for two schools. One was drama college. I got into drama college. The other thing I applied for was theology college. So...

Allie: Perfect background for Fleabag then.

Chrissie: Your roads converged.

Ray Holman: I nearly went to read theology. But I anyway... The long and short of it is I did my high school exams, the A levels. And I don't know why I did it. But I went to see the careers teacher who said, you’re just a working class boy from South Wales. What are you going to do when you go to drama college? Don't go to drama college. You'll be unemployed. Nobody will have you. And you need to go for this interview for the insurance company. So I didn't go to drama college. And I went to work for an insurance company.

Ray Holman: And I went for an interview. It happened really quickly. I got the job. Next thing I knew I was a trainee claims assistant. And so that was weird. And I felt bad about it. I'd done the wrong thing. And asked the college if I could go and re-audition. So I did. And in those days to go to the drama college I went to, you had to do an acting audition. So I did. And I got in again. And I did a year in the insurance company. And I went to drama college where we did what was called a foundation course. So you didn't just specialize. You did acting, voice and speech, dance and movement, stage management, and design. So you did five strands and at the end of two terms you get to choose which one you want to major in for the next two and a half years.

Ray Holman: So I went to see the head professor, and in a really off the cuff way, he said, you need to see the design tutor. I kind of went, why? Why do I need to go see Elizabeth? So I went to see her and she said, I'm telling you now you need to come into my department. So I did. And then within about a month or two of being in design, she taught us how to cut patterns. And it was really interesting because I could do it. I knew it. I could do it. It just worked. I could see with my eye what, how to build a costume. And within about a term I was designing... It was the kind of college where you had public performances. So I was designing costumes for the public performances, and for the actors doing the public performances. And then I specialized in costume in my final year. So that was that. So that was just college. Sorry to go on about that.

Ray Holman: That was a kind of a... I went in to be an actor. I came out as a costume person, I had to design sets in order to get my degree. So I could design sets as well. My tutor wanted me to be a theater designer. So she was really, not really that happy when the BBC came to see my exhibition and said, we were in Wales. And they said, well we don't have any places or training places here. But somebody in Birmingham would like to meet you. So I went to Birmingham.

Ray Holman: And, very naively, as a student with all my period costumes in suitcases that I designed and made. And the head of costume at BBC in Birmingham, she laughed when I came in with all my suitcases. And the corsets and the gowns -- no one ever brought so much to a meeting. She said, alright. Let me have a look at what you've made. And then basically they started training me to be a dresser. And then one of my other tutors in college, bearing in mind these are men telling me these things, said to me, don't do that. That's all you will be. You will be a dresser for the rest of your life. And at that point I kind of thought, you know what? I'm not going to listen. I'm going to do what... I'm enjoying it. I'm going to train and I'm going to do it.

Ray Holman: And okay, Elizabeth was a bit sad that I didn't do any-- And I did do set design eventually. But she kind of went, off you go! And I trained and trained and worked my way up to becoming a designer through the BBC. And through various independent companies. And back to the BBC. So eventually within about five years, I'd gone away from Birmingham. But I'd gone back to Birmingham, become staff at the BBC.

Ray Holman: And I was the kind of assistant designer who I never got the glamorous things. I always got the period up to your neck and mud stuff. All creatures great and small in the middle of the winter with pigs and sheep and cows. And that kind of stuff. I was always away doing some obscure period thing. Whereas some of my colleagues in the department, they were doing contemporary fashion or the things that everybody was kind of really screaming about. Look at the fashions in that. But for me it was a really good grounding.

Chrissie: Yeah. I feel like those stories about the people who told you not to do it are like the beats of your biopic someday that's going to get made about your life. And that's like the first scene in the trailer. “You won't ever succeed as a costume designer.”

Ray Holman: Yeah. And so when we did the [Q&A] session with Jonathan, I got an email from somebody who was in that session through my website saying... And whoever it is hasn't responded to me. But anyway, they sent me this email saying, saw you on the Fleabag session. Didn't realize you were from the Valleys. I work with underprivileged kids in the Valleys. I find it hard to get them out of their situations. They can't see that there are people like you there. Would you come and talk to them? So I've responded, they haven't replied yet. But I guess I can't go anywhere anyway at the moment. But I've done a few of those, going back and saying, guess where I'm from. I'm from here as well. This is what I like to do.

Allie: You don't have to be in insurance.

Ray Holman: No.

Chrissie: You hear that so often. Like I heard an interview, Brad Pitt was actually on Mark Maron's podcast. And he's from the Ozarks in Missouri. And he said, if you told someone you wanted to be an actor, it was like, you might as well have said, I'm going to go live on Mars when I'm an adult. Like it just doesn't even occur to you that's a job.

Ray Holman: Yeah. Even my brother used to say, oh yeah, where's your head? You've got no practical view of life. You've just... But I didn't go.

Allie: You took a risk and certainly paid off. Yeah.

Chrissie: It worked out.

Ray Holman: I was lucky. I was lucky. I had good people looking out for me. And spotting something that I would never know. And even now I kind of have this... I don't make a secret of it. But I have a little bit of imposter syndrome. I still think I'm not quite sure why I'm doing what I'm doing. And if I'm worthy to do what I'm doing. And that's because no matter what people say, there still is a kind of a class structure in the UK. There still are people who are costume designers who've been to very expensive schools. And think... But I guess the difference is that what I've learned, I've chosen to learn, and I've actively learned it. And so I don't know. But there's always that little bit of… if somebody criticizes me, I will take it to heart. And then give myself a good talking to.

Allie: Yeah. That's what I think... I feel like that's what you hear often, is that, as successful as someone can be, they're still sort of in awe that they are where they are.

Ray Holman: Yeah. I but I think that that impacts on the way somebody like me approaches the job as well. And I'm not going to say to an actor that I'm the costume designer. That's what you're going to look like, without any discussion. I can't do that. I have to be involved with every actor. So, but I'm sure I can answer that later.

Allie: Well that is the perfect segue actually. Our next question was going to be, tell us about the overall process of costume design on the series, from when you get scripts. And then when you start thinking of ideas and how you collaborate with like the larger team and the actors. What's that timeline kind of look like for you?

Ray Holman: It's different on different productions. I'm mainly a television designer, so I get less time than feature films do. But it always begins with, these days my agent or I have worked with somebody. And somebody will call me or send me an email and say, will you read my script? And what do you think about it? Will you come and talk to me about it? So it depends how busy I am. But even recently I had quite a big name who I've always wanted to work for saying, will you read the script? I said to this director, I can't. I'm not available to do it. And he was like, well, can you read it anyway? So, I did. And it was a brilliant script. And he said, does it change your mind? And I said, well, I would have to let other people down in order to do this. I can't.

Ray Holman: So, you get the script and you... I tend to do this less, but you go to what they call a meeting or an interview. It's really an interview. But I tend not to have to do that now because people know who I am. But under normal circumstances you would go for a meeting. If it was something huge you would go to discuss your approach to it. But it all comes down to the script basically. And whether you... I would say, do I like that script? They would say, are you capable of doing this job? And the best thing about every job is when that phone call comes that says yes, they want you.

Chrissie: And when you're looking at a script, are you looking at just the overall quality of the narrative? Are you specifically looking at, okay, the story is maybe not the best. But these would be great costumes to be able to design?

Ray Holman: No, I'm not really that good with kind of vanity costumes. I'm looking at the writing. I don't know why, but I think I have a talent for spotting good writing. I don't know how that happened. But all my projects have been very well written projects. Even when, for example, we were doing Broadchurch 1, when Chris, who I'd worked with before said, will you read it? And it was between me and somebody else. But only unofficially between me and somebody else. Because I think I knew I had the job. But I had to go through the process of doing mood boards and doing looks for the script. But when I read Broadchurch series one, episode one, I was determined I was going to do it. All it was... It's a contemporary piece. But I was absolutely... There was something about those scripts that made me absolutely determined to do it. And it's not about, oh, this is a huge period drama. It's about the quality of the writing. And the characters. And it's the same with Fleabag. And I was saying, this the same with lots of things.

Chrissie: Well, good writing elevates every other aspect of the show.

Ray Holman: Because if the writing is good, you've got somewhere to go. And you know that you can be creative.

Allie: Yeah, absolutely.

Ray Holman: So yeah. So then you get the scripts. And you get the job. And you start doing research. So in a very practical way, I'm very kind of, okay, is there a police force? What kind of society is it? You start breaking down the characters within the world that's been created. And that's different on different productions. For Fleabag, it was Fleabag's world. And Fleabag's world was already set up. What I had to do for Fleabag was elevate that world. And take it, move it forward with Fleabag. With Doctor Who every single episode is different. You can be in the future, you could be in the past. So research is key to it all.

Ray Holman: And also your costume budget is quite important. I did go through the first week, maybe the first two weeks on prep of Fleabag moaning next to the line producer saying, I can't do this. And also one of the things, I'm quite principled. I never discuss budgets with actors. So, if an actor, even if it's Phoebe, says, oh, have you seen that really expensive thing? I'll go, okay. Okay. And I'll say, but have you seen this less expensive thing? Which is the same thing. So but I won't ever, I will keep as far as possible, I will keep the budget to myself. And try and work within the restrictions of that.

Ray Holman: But lots of research and lots of script breaking down. And then talking to whoever will talk to me about it. So that changes on different productions. On Fleabag, Phoebe. And I knew the stories and I already knew Phoebe anyway. And I didn't have to do... I didn't have to meet her in advance. She came in to see me on my first day. And came into the office. And said, “when you said yes, I did a little dance in the office.” It was like, “why? It's just a comedy.” I only had seen episode one at that point. And didn't realize that it was quite as big as it was. But I was lovely to see Phoebe. And so with that Phoebe led the writing.

Ray Holman: And the way creatively, Harry has a little... I would ask Harry what he preferred now and again. But Harry was really very good because his specialty was to let only correct Phoebe if she was in gray area. And that was the same for me as well. But let Phoebe fly with it really. And so the other people... Like who did I talk to… just some people but that was it.

Ray Holman: Whereas on Doctor Who, I will get a script. I will talk to Chris, the show runner. I'll talk to whoever's producing that episode. And then the poor director gets a look in. We do big tone meetings. And then I do design. Then I design the things I research and design things. So every program is a different approach.

Chrissie: How much of your stuff is custom made? I guess it would depend on the series, right, versus what you purchased?

Ray Holman: Yeah, I, on Fleabag, I didn't get to custom make much and I would have done much more if I'd had money, more money. On Doctor Who, I make quite a lot. I make loads because it has to be lots of original designs. And even I did something called The Split, which was about a family of women who were family lawyers, quite wealthy, very well dressed and lots of designer clothes. I did that. And even on that I decided that I would kind of make original designs for some of the contemporary stuff there. So it varies. I was just about to ... I'm just about to design something called The Pact, which I was making a few things for that as well.

Ray Holman: But I don't ever… because I do creatures and costumes on Doctor Who, that gets quite complicated and there's loads and loads of original builds and designs, which means that comes with costings and previews and getting makers to let me know how much things would be, how long ... how much time they need. Whereas with Fleabag for example, one thing, when I saw the scripts I thought, okay, I can make some things for Godmother and I can enhance some costumes for Dad and for some of the women. But I don't think, did I ever make anything for Fleabag herself? I decided that she was completely High Street, not typically High Street, High Street with a quirk. So she worked-

Chrissie: And what is High Street for us Americans?

Ray Holman: So High Street, I think one of your questions says, you were talking about one of the producers on the series one saying that Fleabag and Boo shop in Top Shop.

Chrissie: Right.

Ray Holman: Top Shop is High Street. High Street is not designer clothes. So for you, what ... do you know Top Shop?

Chrissie: I guess I looked it up and there is a US Top Shop?

Ray Holman: And do you know All Saints?

Chrissie: No.

Allie: I was thinking H&M maybe.

Ray Holman: Yeah, H&M is a perfect example ,and Benetton. So for example, I would never take that advice and just go to Top Shop for one and do the whole of one character in Top Shop. It would be way too one dimensional. But so Fleabag's clothes for example, come from the most ... I had three days of intense shopping on my own, trying to work out where she would go. So they ... a couple of bits come from Top Shop, some come from Benetton, some come from French Connection, some come from Urban Outfitters, some come from And Other Stories. Some of it's from Reese, but it's all readily available in the shops. I suppose that's what High Street is. It's there and it's readily available to buy.

Chrissie: Gotcha. So what were some of the challenges of coming in since you didn't do the costume design in season one? How did you pull from the design in season one to elevate that in season two?

Ray Holman: Well, I thought season one looked great. There wasn't anything to kind of redesign. But what was lucky for me was that it was a whole new set of scripts and it didn't follow on… even though the characters were still there, it's a year later, it was a fresh start and even though Fleabag herself had a great look in series one, I knew that I could extend that out and it needed to be different because… the same but different.

Ray Holman: So some elements I kept, I think we only kept two original things. One was the little necklace and the other one that I sometimes used, the original trench coat. But Phoebe for example, was like, we need a new trench coat. And funnily enough, this is what Phoebe and I are like. She ... we were ... I was in Covent Garden and she was texting me, no, I had just take a photograph of a trench coat  and I was sending it to her. I knew she was writing so I was just whapping it over to her. And as I was doing that, she was sending me a picture of the exact same coat.

Allie: Oh my God, get out.

Ray Holman: And we both went, snap. I’m in the shop, you're writing, this is what you want, this is what I think you want. That's what we'll do. I get it. So-

Chrissie: That's crazy.

Ray Holman: ... It was a bit like that. And there were things we explored, for example, she wanted to feel, I think there's a ... Phoebe had a romantic idea about Fleabag looking French and so I did the whole… and she did have stripy tops and trench coats, quite Parisian but in a very British way. So I was trying to kind of keep going with a bit of that and I did-

Chrissie: What do you mean by that?

Ray Holman: Well, I bought her berets and I bought her proper Normandy stripy tops as French stripy tops, which we liked in the fittings and I don't think we ever used them, but Phoebe used to do this impression with her beret and say, I've got to look at the camera and go, ooh, too French. She never did it. Series two went a completely different way and it got more ... it was more of a personal intense story, but we did explore those comedy moments through costume, but I think it all settled on the costumes making complete sense.

Ray Holman: Now, some friends of mine who are in their 80s, who are two lovely old actresses, said to me, we can see why people–because with the imposter thing, I kind of go, why are people buying into all that? And they're saying to me, because you know what, we're looking at the screen and every character, you can see the thought behind every character because even if it's a comedy character or a serious moment, the thought is there and there was a lot of that going on. There's a lot of me analyzing every single character, not only for me but with the actors as well.

Chrissie: Well, and my thing when I watched it with the costumes is it ... they're noticeable. And like you were saying, you can see that they make sense, but they never distract.

Ray Holman: No. One of my things, one of my personal things is that I don't want to design a costume that takes away from an actor's performance unless I'm meant to be doing that. And so I'm quite, I think I'm quite well known for, I can do feature costumes and, but I'm quite well known for balancing that out and not making the costume overtake so much that you can't see what the actor's intention is unless you need to do that and it's a creature on Doctor Who ,then you can do it.

Chrissie: Well, and I think it balances well with Phoebe's writing because one of the things, you know the concept of the manic pixie dream girl, have you heard that?

Ray Holman: Yes.

Chrissie: And to me, a show like Fleabag in lesser hands could go that route where Phoebe ... Fleabag and Boo are so quirky and they over-accessorize and they ... everything's about their style versus I think the quirkiness comes out in the writing and you get a sense that their personalities are what's quirky, not just what's ... what they wear.

Ray Holman: So it could go completely comedy. I mean, Fleabag with her stripy tops could look like Marcel Marceau, but you just have to haul all of that back and come from a place of honesty and authenticity. And for me, when I was ... I thought Boo was one of the hardest people to continue with in series two because she was dead and I couldn't take her forward in time. So I found that quite difficult. But I thought it through and decided to go vintage and vintage, even though we hadn't seen her wearing the clothes that I did in series two, they needed to make sense to her character. And so she didn't have anything from Top Shop, I mean from my point of view it was all vintage clothes but enough to make sense of that character and colorful. And there was a beautiful, I love ... I think I gave it to her in the end, I found this beautiful cotton '80s cardigan with circles in different colors on it and it was in it for about 30 seconds in a flashback. And I remember thinking there's always a piece that defines the character. And I remember thinking that is the ... that is Boo but there's always ... there always is something.

Chrissie: Yeah, absolutely. So we talked a little about Phoebe wanted the ... sort of herself to look French. What were the discussions about other characters, if you could give us some insight in what she had in mind and then how you sort of develop that?

Ray Holman: Well let's continue with Phoebe for a minute because-

Chrissie: Oh, yes, please.

Ray Holman: ... because even though she wanted to have French, that was just a background thing. And what we needed to do with her, was every episode is a different construct. So episode one is the reunited meal where they announced the wedding, episode two she visited the church and she gets to know Priest a bit more. Episode three is a business meeting. So very different from series one in that we had different specific subjects to deal with and Fleabag had those to deal with. And even though we went back to the cafe and everything, she was moving on with her life. And so I think her clothes, as an urban London woman, her clothes needed to reflect that. And it's like almost it's like, if I can explain it to you, like maybe women going to work in New York, they do it in London as well, they might have their suits on, but they're not wearing their heels. That's it. But Fleabag is just not wearing her heels. And I know that Phoebe herself is tall. She's 5’11” and she doesn't really wear heels unless she really wants to. And she's at some kind of glamorous event and she can look really good really quickly because she's got the most amazing figure. So, it was about keeping all of those things real and making, keeping ... making Fleabag feel like an urban woman, a modern urban woman who doesn't just shop in one place. So, that was good.

Ray Holman: And for the rest of it, I think that Phoebe had a very big kind of idea about Priest because she had written that part especially for Andrew. And they had talked about it quite a lot. So I talked to both Andrew and Phoebe about Priest and while we were prepping, I think I said this on the last thing, I was looking up how a Catholic priest dresses in the vestry, in his vestments. So I was looking up videos and found some specific videos where quite handsome Catholic priests are showing you how to put the vestments on. Because even though I was going to do theology and weirdly in college I'd done a thesis on ecclesiastical costume… So I kind of knew a lot about it, but I didn't. But there was a time in the script, and I don't think it ever got onto screen, where we saw Priest dressing from start to finish.

Ray Holman: Now, we didn't have time to show that on screen. But I wanted Phoebe to know how to write that. And that's even though she had talked to Andrew about the emotional character and about, it was good to put those actual physical realities into Phoebe's mind so that she could work them into the script. And as far as other characters went, Sian, who plays Claire, very much was really worried that I was going to change Claire. I mean really like, well, she'd already done a series. She loves the series. She didn't want anything changed and that was fine by me, but we had to move her forward. So we had several shopping trips. Dad was written fairly clearly and the only real big specific thing was the suit for the wedding. But we can talk about that at some point. And I think that Godmother– Phoebe's really good at giving, writing it, but having very good conversations with her fellow actors. And I think the thing we both know is that we wouldn't want any of those actors to be wearing something that didn't make sense or that made them feel uncomfortable. So we worked really hard to make sure that it all made sense and it all looked like it made sense.

Chrissie: It seems like, we've said this, as a whole, the whole season feels brighter, just more colorful, literally more light. Which I think represents the characters all growing like you were saying. So did you look cohesively at season two and that was going to be reflected in the costumes?

Ray Holman: I didn't think of a big a season arc at all because I was ... we were so busy. I was so busy doing the nitty gritty and that I think it was just dealing with what was in the script really. And also we filmed through at the end of August through September to the beginning of October. And it was lovely weather most of the time. So we went with the season. Now and again, I mean it's hard with the picture for the whole thing. I would say with each episode, I would deal with all of the characters in one episode and I would work out all the colors and work out the textures and try and do as much as possible to make that make sense with the story and not make people look like they're wearing the same colors and clashing in any way or that their characters are overlapping.

Ray Holman: But there was a lot of ... I remember when like, for example, I think in episode two, it's just a straightforward little scene where Priest is saying goodbye to the congregation and all those characters were written. So each character had a title and I can remember shopping on the weekend and thinking, oh, another woman and this man and another man, another woman and another woman and another man and just all had to shake hands with Priest before Fleabag got there. And all I was ... I was literally in the shops with all their measurements trying to match up everything but within the tastes of a Catholic congregation. So it was very ... I did think a lot.

Chrissie: How does a woman who owns budgies dress for church? This is just a total side note of that scene that I just noticed on a 20th viewing is Fleabag starts saying God bless you to the people as they're leaving.

Ray Holman: Yes.

Chrissie: She starts saying goodbye to them too. Goodbye. Well no, because what once one of my friends had commented that she felt like, we had seen Fleabag in so much black and navy and that all of a sudden when she meets the Priest, we start seeing her in bright red at the fete, and then at the wedding. And was that supposed to represent that he's kind of helped pull her out of this depression she's been going through and out of her grief and ...

Ray Holman: I would say to that, no, it wasn't that intentional. Although we did talk a lot about the dress she wore at the end, at the wedding, and I… basically when she goes to the church in episode two I found a dress for her which was quite pretty and that Fleabag hadn't worn anything like that before. So it was floral, it was the red and black floral dress and I thought it's probably too pretty, but Phoebe really liked it when she put it on. And I thought, well, I could do two things. I could make it even prettier or I could just make it more urban. So I put the denim jacket on with it and the pumps. And so I didn't want it to look like she was trying to allure the Priest, like she was trying to lure him in a predatory way. I wanted her to feel, and I think Phoebe understood that as well, that it was a textured, it was a floral dress. She'd never done that, a tiny bit more respectful and not vulnerable, but just not quite as forthright.

Chrissie: But still making an effort?

Ray Holman: Fleabag’s going into uncharted territory, which is what that whole sequence was all about really. I mean Fleabag’s costumes always related to the scenes she was in. So obviously if you count up as ... how many costumes she has, it’s quite a lot. But there are only really six or seven main costumes. But if you see all the little tiny flashbacks, all the exercising, all the drinks with people in bars, you had loads of clothes.

Chrissie: But even the fact that she seems to wear repeat pieces or wears outfits, because at one point this is where the fans, I say it like that doesn't include me, got really nerdy about what is the timeline of the series? So what night is the dinner and then how many days till she goes to see the Priest and there's one episode where she's wearing the same outfit, I think it's episode three or no, maybe it's episode two because we were like, she goes to church, she goes to see her sister, they meet the lawyer, she goes to the counseling session, she has Chatty Wednesday... and she's wearing the same outfit and we finally realized, I think she's just wearing the same outfit on different days.

Ray Holman: Yeah. We didn't have a specific timeline and we ... when we were making it, it was much easier to use the same costume because when you come to the edit, this is a thing that you can do, you can drop a scene in a different order to the way it's written. So if you ... if I put her, it's a practical thing, in several different outfits all in that episode for those different locations, they wouldn't be ... they would have to cut it in a specific way. And if, when we get into the edit suite, they don't like that, they would have to make it look like it was a mistake. So the easiest thing to do was dress her for the most important part of that episode and keep her in that costume because then it gives the creatives, it gives Phoebe, it gives the director, it gives the editor freedom to shuffle things around and make more sense.

Ray Holman: Imagine this.... I think it's not a secret that we had the scripts, but they were being rewritten constantly. There was a constant flow of rewriting and even when you get ... you send them off to set and Sian and Phoebe would get to set. And then I'd get a phone call saying, well, can we do this? We've just thought about this. We've just been talking about it. Can you send… And I'd say yes or I'd say no. More than not, I'd be able to accommodate them. Or I would have anticipated where it would go. But there was a constant rewrite. And when you're doing that and when you're working intensely and you're in the middle of it, it's quite hard to step back and really get to look at it objectively again. So, when you're making it and you're not quite sure if that scene is in the right place, it's ... a costume can make or break the flow of the story if the costume is not the right one. So I know that's not a very creative answer, but it is creative because you have to make that decision to not put 100 costumes in that episode.

Chrissie: Well and that seems to be a theme we've heard. Like even when we talked to Jenny Rainsford where she was talking about the scene of the funeral when the ... about, “I don't know where to put all the love I have for her,” that that was kind of impromptu, they moved to a different location and Harry just brought in the cameras and it ... to me that's reflective of just everybody on that show being at the top of their game where everybody can adapt to what serves the story.

Ray Holman: And we would all be like, where are we now? Oh right, okay. What did they need? Oh, they need this. Oh right, let's get this.

Chrissie: Well, and I said, it's so, it's actually kind of encouraging to anybody who's creative to realize that these things are not ... you don't sit down and plan out a perfect show.

Ray Holman: No.

Chrissie: It has to come organically from people who just know what they're doing. And respect each other. That seems to be the main thing. Everybody seemed to really trust each other that, okay, if Harry wants to do it this way, we're just going to follow suit and we're just going to trust him.

Ray Holman: Absolutely. We would always try and do the absolute best for both Phoebe and Harry and Sarah, the producer. There wasn't any, “no, you can't do that” because that would've just ... it would have been like a big sledgehammer on production. We were all going with the flow and we just wanted it to be as good and to support them all as much as we possibly could.

Chrissie: I want to talk about a very key piece of wardrobe that I think everybody knows what I'm about to say and it's the wide pocket jeans she wears in the café.

Ray Holman: What wide pocket jeans?

Chrissie: In episode three, when she goes to the-

Allie: We will get to the jumpsuit.

Chrissie: We're going to get to the other one.

Ray Holman: Is this episode three or four? Which one is it? Which-

Chrissie: It's three. It's three because it's when they ... oh wait, it is for your right. I'm sorry. Because three is women in business.

Ray Holman: I'd just like to say that's my favorite outfit. The wide­ jeans?

Chrissie: They're so cute. Because when she ... it is episode four, you're right, when they ... when she goes to put Hilary back in the hutch and you'd just see the pocket and I'm just like, these are the cutest jeans. And I noticed that Phoebe kept them.

Ray Holman: Yes.

Chrissie: Because she wore them, not that I was like obsessively looking at these jeans but she wore them when they handed out G&Ts outside her show-

Ray Holman: She did.

Chrissie: ... she was wearing ... Yeah. And a lot of us noticed. But-

Allie: Oh, I didn't see that.

Chrissie: But anyway, where did you ... did you just find those at a shop?

Ray Holman: No, there was a very ... there was a specific process for those and that was, I had bought some, literally let's go back to Top Shop. I bought some jeans in Top Shop and so she had her normal fitting skinny jeans and we were trying to look for something and I was trying to look for some of the thing to go with that stripy top because it wasn't a typical French stripy top and I wanted this whole outfit for episode four to feel so Fleabag and I don't know why but it's just something in the writing. So I searched and searched for a wide cut pair of jeans and quite a lot of them were boot cut and retro rather than modern and moving forward. And I found a pair in a shop called Arquette, which is a Swedish shop. And I bought them for her, I hauled her in to fitting, she loved them. And then she said, oh, these are like some specific designer’s who sells jeans for like £500 a pair. And she's like, I really like these, these are, and I can't remember the name of the designer but… and I thought, well you can't have the £500 ones. But the ones I bought it didn't fit. And so I needed ... I think they were too big in fact. And I had to go down a size, went back to shop, didn't have them, literally went online, had to get them in from Sweden.

Chrissie: Oh my god.

Ray Holman: So, I was on pins. I was like, are they going to arrive? Are they going to arrive? Am I going to be on the sewing machine with the big ones before they arrived? But we really liked them. And the good thing about them was that they were a pair of jeans, which were not only fashion forward, but they were very grounded as well. They didn't look like a £500 pair of designer jeans, which is what the reference point would've looked like. They were ...The reference point would've looked like they were very normal, stylish jeans. And I really liked those. That was my favorite outfit.

Allie: I love it too.

Chrissie: ... I knew there was a story to those jeans.

Allie: Well, to get to the predictable question about another iconic outfit, tell us about the jumpsuit.

Ray Holman: Okay, here it is. The jumpsuit... I literally was in Top Shop. So I was kind of doing my eyes to the ceiling, here I am in Top Shop, okay, let's see what's here. But whenever I go to Top Shop, I go to the basement and that's where all the little tiny designer franchises are. And so there were some quirky things there. And knowing Phoebe, I was kind of right, she's not going to go with that. She's not going to go with that. But I'm going to buy a few risky things. And I want to test the water with them. And so one of the things that I bought, and it was very, very early on, it was one of the very first things I bought, was the jumpsuit. And I picked it up, looked at it and thought, no front, no back. Oh my God, let's see. It could ... she'll probably punch me in the face, but try it. A navy blue one. So I just took it, and then I didn't see Phoebe for three or four days. And after ... it's always the same with costume, "Can you do a fitting with me at seven o'clock this evening?" So you know, it's like, "Yeah, okay, just fit it at seven o'clock this evening." And we did like an hour one evening in a room where they were all rehearsing. And I said, "Now look, don't hit me, but see this? Can you put this on?" And she kind of went, "That looks interesting. Yeah, yeah, no, let's put it on." And she literally put it on. It fitted her I mean, perfectly. I was more worried about her boobs. She just went, "Boom. Episode one, this is episode one."

Allie: Oh, amazing.

Ray Holman: She said this is what she would wear to episode one. And I said, "Yeah, but with your pumps." And she said, "Absolutely." I said, "Um, are your boobs going to show?" She said, "Don't worry about that. It's fine, it fits perfectly." And she literally knew from the minute ... within five minutes, she said, "I'm going to look in the mirror, show me the back." And she literally turned round and said, "This is a love story." So she knew as soon as she put that jumpsuit on, that that was it. But we did, I mean, it was just ... I mean, it was £38, you know? So ... and then you know, I think every ... Well, you know this, but I'll tell the story again. But while we were filming, they did the premiere of Killing Eve, series one at BAFTA in London. And Phoebe had to go from the shoot to the premiere with Sandra Oh and with Jodie Comer. And she said during the day, "Can I wear the navy jumpsuit?" And I said, "Absolutely not. We're in the middle of filming." "Will you go and get me one?"

Ray Holman: So we went out and they didn't have a navy one, they had a black one. So we got the black one. And she went to the Killing Eve premiere at BAFTA in the jumpsuit. Literally sent me a text with her, Sandra Oh and Jodie Comer, and said, "Everybody wants to know where the bloody jumpsuit's from, and I have these beautiful women with me."

Allie: Sure. So you got an inkling of what was to come.

Ray Holman: Yeah, there was a little inkling of what was about to come. But we just put that aside. But that's the story of the jumpsuit. It was a risk. And that's what you get when a risk pays off really, I suppose.

Allie: Yeah.

Chrissie: Little did all those people know they were getting a major spoiler.

Allie Right.

Chrissie: Of season two of Fleabag.

Ray Holman: Yeah.

Chrissie: With that jumpsuit. I think it's interesting that the suit in the show is navy, because everybody assumes it's black.

Ray Holman: Yeah. It's just the way that ... Because most ... I mean the whole of that episode is under-lit, because it's in a restaurant. So it's very subtle lighting. But it is navy blue and people will, I've had people on Twitter argue with me. I was the person who bought it, I was the person who chose it.

Chrissie: Oh my God.

Ray Holman: Do you know what I mean? I've had people saying, "You're wrong." And I was like-

Chrissie: Oh, so that happens to men on Twitter too!

Allie: Yeah.

Chrissie: Because I've seen, like women who've written articles and they'll talk about something, they'll be like ... and a guy will go like, "I don't think you understood the point of this article." She's like, "I think I did, because I wrote it."

Ray Holman: Yeah. There's a famous story about me with the Jodie Whittaker's Doctor's costume. You know, it's like the jumpsuit. It's not until it's broadcast that you know it's ... it does what it does. And so we had released images of Jodie Whittaker in the Doctor Who costume. But then we went into filming and it wasn't seen very much. And after the initial release, I couldn't talk about it. We were saving the discussions about the costume until broadcast, when they would be more relevant. And so I was on Twitter, and I had designed the costume and I'd ... I mean, you have to think about Doctor Who. Doctor Who has a sonic screwdriver, and is always looking in the character's pocket, whether it's a man or a woman. So I would have thought that was obvious. So she has several pockets in her coat. She has two pockets in her trousers. She has pockets everywhere. But some women on Twitter decided that they needed to know if the first Doctor, the first woman Doctor had pockets, because she was designed by a man, and has that man failed to know the feminine thing about ...

Allie: Oh man.

Ray Holman: And I wasn't allowed to say. And I literally, I had one feminist from America send me a DM saying, "You just tell us. We are allowed to know these things. All we want to know is ..." And legally I couldn't say anything, because I was under contract to not talk about it until broadcast. But I had a load of grief, which is why on Twitter, I reposted the article about women and feminism and pockets. And even during the course of the filming, I was tweeting the article about women and pockets, and nobody got it. Nobody got the message that yes, I can be a man. I'm a man. Yes, I'm a man, but I know the jumpsuit was navy blue, because I chose it. And I know-

Chrissie: I'm also a professional costume designer.

Ray Holman: And I know the Doctor has pockets, because I put them in her costume. Anyway, there we are.

Chrissie: Oh God. Fans, online fans are the best and the worst.

Allie: Yes.

Ray Holman: And the worst.

Allie: Simultaneously.

Chrissie: It's ... Yeah, wow.

Ray Holman: They keep me amused.

Chrissie: Let's hope that stays that way. But with the jumpsuit, I mean I guess you got an inkling when it was so successful at the premiere of Killing Eve, but what was it like just to see things explode, to watch it sell out? Like was that fun?

Ray Holman: Well it was very interesting because there's a little story. We were doing ... Simon, my assistant and I, we were doing Doctor Who and we were quite busy. And we watched episode one of Fleabag. And we watched it together in the office before it was shown on television. And we both went, "Wow, that's absolutely amazing." Because we hadn't done that thing while we were working on it, of knowing what the end result was going to be like, and stepping back. So we were like, "Wow, that's amazing." And the same thing happened, I looked at Phoebe in the jumpsuit and thought, "Wow, just wow. She looks phenomenal." And because I'm not there all the time on set. And so slowly I have kind of ... I'm used to things building up on Twitter with Doctor Who, with The Split, with Broadchurch. So, but suddenly I got a message from Phoebe. And again, she just went, "Boom." She sent me a, "Boom." A jumpsuit, "Boom." And she sent me a thing saying, "Have you seen Twitter?" And I was like, "No, I haven't. What's ..." "The jumpsuit is an event on Twitter." I thought, "What's happening? What are they all talking about? It's a £39 jumpsuit.” But anyway, it was very interesting to see the whole thing. And I was really pleased for that company, you know, to get that.

Chrissie: Yeah. Halloween had a lot of those jumpsuits.

Ray Holman: Oh yes.

Allie: Oh yes.

Chrissie: I've joked that I can't wear that. I would get arrested if I wore that.

Ray Holman: I mean, you know, I knew Phoebe and I was worried.

Chrissie: Well, it's interesting because it is, it's provocative, but it's not overly revealing.

Ray Holman: No.

Allie: Just like Fleabag!

Ray Holman: Yeah. You have to be a certain ... you have to have a certain figure.

Allie: Yeah. Just hers.

Chrissie: Yeah. You have to be Phoebe.

Allie: Yes.

Ray Holman: Yeah. Yeah.

Chrissie: Well we're going to kind of go through each character and we've talked a lot about Fleabag. And so I want to talk a little more about the Priest, because who doesn't?

Ray Holman: Yeah.

Chrissie: So you mentioned a little bit, but like on the Q&A, you talked a little bit about like working with Andrew specifically and kind of what, based on your discussions with him, how you approached the Priest, specifically his clothes out of the vestments, his street clothes.

Ray Holman: Yeah. And really very simply, I wanted them to fit him. That sounds really strange, but Andrew is ... I didn't want it to be too baggy. I wanted them to fit him well. And I wanted them to feel used, not poor, but always used and very simple. And basically, I mean a lot of ... Again, going back to the research, I did a bit of research on American Catholic priests or young Catholic priests in the seminary, and looking at what they did socially and what they posted on YouTube. And there was one or two very kind of handsome, nicely, kind of with a lovely personality, young priests who, you know, just wore a sweatshirt, or a sweater. And so I wanted simplicity. And again, in the way that I never ever wanted Fleabag to be overtly sexual in the clothes, that should be a natural thing, I wanted that to happen with the Priest. Because the Priest definitely wouldn't know, or want to dress in a sexually provocative way. And this was a love story and that could easily happen. So we, I talked about that quite a lot with Andrew. We had a very big fitting in a costume house and I'd bought him certain clothes. So I bought him ... I didn't want him to wear ordinary kind of boring black chinos. I wanted his trousers to be black jeans. So, but not a specific ... I didn't want it to be super cool Levi’s or anything too fashionable. So I just used a pair of Uniqlo. I wanted his shoes to be conservative, but not too conservative. So it's just finding the balance, really. And Andrew was really good. He cares a lot about his characters. He talked a lot with Phoebe about what the Priest was like, and the image the Priest kind of gave out. And I taught him to do the vestments.

Chrissie: Did you have to custom make all those basements?

Ray Holman: No, no. I couldn't afford them. Vestments cost an absolute fortune. You know, I sent you a ... did I tweet to you a priest in a vestment?

Chrissie: Yes, you did.

Ray Holman: Yeah, that was one of my reference points. But I was a bit ... I was torn with the vestments because I'd done a thesis in ecclesiastical costume and its theatrical nature, and I was going to read theology, so I knew quite a lot about it. And vestments cost thousands of pounds, literally thousands. And now he needed at least four sets. He needed a wedding set, a funeral set. He needed an everyday church set. And I think we had some that he didn't wear, but were seen and he needed a trying on set. So I went to Angel’s Costume Hires and they've got hundreds of them, but a lot of them are really old fashioned looking. So I had to ... I think I spent about five hours going through all the vestments, so that I could find the vestment that sat well with me. And then I think I had about seven or eight of them. And then when I got Andrew, we talked through them together. And I think he really liked the green one. And so that was the one he wore when we first saw him in his vestments. But they were all ... I mean, one of the ecclesiastical companies in London said, "Oh," you know, afterwards, "Oh, if he'd only come to us." Well, you know, four or five weeks prep, vestments take ... vestments are full of craft. They're full of, you know, your congregation have probably embroidered all the panels; it's taken years. They're full of love and care. And so you can't just make them. And also if you go to a company and say, "Can you do these and not charge me?" Or, "Can you charge me ..." they'll just laugh at you. It's not until ... What people forget is that when you're prepping and making a program, it's not until it's a success that people want to get on board.

Chrissie: Right.

Allie: Right.

Ray Holman: So the vestments were my kind of, I wanted to do better with those, but I mean I had to deal with them as they were the best ones that I could get.

Chrissie: So even the layers you couldn't see, they were still full, proper vestments?

Ray Holman: Yeah, absolutely.

Chrissie: Yeah. That's interesting. One question that always comes up, you had mentioned when he's trying on in like the fitting room.

Ray Holman: Yeah.

Chrissie: Is that supposed to be like a room at the church where they have a variety of vestments? Because people are always like, "Did they go like to the Vestments R Us shopping center?"

Ray Holman: There are vestment shops.

Chrissie: Okay.

Ray Holman: They're few and far between, but there are ecclesiastical shops where you buy your collars, et cetera.

Chrissie: Okay.

Ray Holman: So those places do exist. But those vestments probably cost £3,000.

Allie: Wow.

Chrissie: Wow.

Ray Holman: For just the top layer, you know?

Allie: Wow.

Ray Holman: So you know, and we needed four or five. So, but yeah, where he went ... and I remember on the day that he tried that vestment on, they sent me a picture and I went, "It's back to front." I was out shopping somewhere. And they all went, "No, we like it back to front." And I said, "Okay. Okay. Keep it back to front." I know that it's back to front, but there you go.

Chrissie: That's a good little trivia take out.

Allie: Yeah.

Chrissie: I wanted to talk through a couple of like specifically some of the more … about the street clothes.

Ray Holman: Yeah.

Chrissie: So like the dinner shirt or the dinner suit.

Ray Holman: Yeah.

Chrissie: You said was just kind of meant like he's trying a little, but again, it's not overly stylish.

Ray Holman: Yeah, it's very straight forward. But it was from a designer shop actually, which I love called Oliver Spencer, who dresses for quirky East-end men, kind of architects... But that shirt was something that had been in my stock for about two seasons from another job. And we were having the debate about whether he was sitting at the meal with a dog collar on or not, but I got some shirts out that were not the dog collar. And because I think the realization that he's a priest didn't come until later on in the writing, there is, when we first read it, we knew he was a priest. So we had a little debate about whether the collar was going to be worn or not. And Andrew and I both wanted ... I didn't want a pale blue Marks and Spencer's shirt, I wanted something quirky. And it was a really nice textured shirt. So slightly fashionable, but fashionable two years ago.

Chrissie:  What about the Buffalo Bill shirt when she comes to his residence?

Ray Holman: You know when we did our big fitting, and you know what-

Chrissie: Which … that shirt fits him just right.

Ray Holman: Yeah. I was like, "I'm going to throw something into this fitting, which is completely unexpected." And it's like the jumpsuit. So the idea that you're going to take a risk, and I found that T-shirt at a costume hire place. And I was like, "Put it on." And Andrew went, "Oh my God. What? What?". I said, "Well, you could open the door in that couldn't you? You're kind of… caught you unexpected, and you're at home."

Allie: Priests have pajamas, too!

Ray Holman: And you're not ... nobody's expecting ... you're not expecting anybody. You don't have to be in a dog collar. And he put it on. It did fit him beautifully, and then he went, "I'll wear this, yes, if you ..." So I sent a picture to Phoebe and to Harry and to Sarah. And they were like, "Wow. Yeah." And then they all got nervous. They were like, "Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it." And then they were like, "Where's that picture from? Is there copyright on it?" But it was a really, really old one. There was no ... I searched and searched to find if we could find copyright on it or where it had come from. But it was just, yeah, I think it was from the '70s you know.

Chrissie: I love it.

Ray Holman: it was one of those let's take a risk moments.

Chrissie: Yeah. And then on the Q&A you said you had to make some adjustments on that blue jumper in episode four.

Ray Holman: So if I'm absolutely honest, the dialogue walking down the street going, "Look at those arms," I was like, "Is he walking the street in a T-shirt?” That's like, you know. It can't be his Buffalo Bill T-shirt. He's on duty.

Chrissie: Is he shirtless for some reason?

Ray Holman: He's ... I bought him the sweatshirt. And which fitted him really nicely. And Andrew really liked it. But of course it didn't make any sense to the, "Look at those arms." So we basically, we kind of cable-tied it. We clipped it under the arms, and we were going to sew it, but then we only wanted it to be tight on his arm for that moment. So we did that. We clipped it in all under the arms, just for that line. Because I still couldn't really work out. Yeah, I know she, you know, it's like that was the one thing that I wasn't sure about how to dress him, what to dress him and how to dress him, and how to meet the brief. But that was it. We did meet the brief and it was just the jumper.

Allie: Yes, you did.

Chrissie: That worked.

Ray Holman: Yeah, so.

Allie: Well and yeah, I love that scene. But we wanted to talk ... Oh, you go.

Chrissie: Belinda.

Allie: Belinda, because she has such a small presence, but she's so impactful and her wardrobe is just so fabulous and put together. So we're curious, how did you build those pieces for her ensemble?

Ray Holman: Well, it's really straightforward. Belinda's casting swithered about, swithered about. Great part, but because of Olivia's availability, couldn't get certain people on certain days. We were filming on the weekends. And it kind of kept going back and forth. So I could never pin down how Belinda looked, because I didn't have an actress. Anyway, I think two days before we shot her, it was Kristin Scott Thomas.

Allie: Two days?!

Ray Holman: And I was like, Oh my God, it's Kristin Scott Thomas. What am I going to do about this? So I did a bit of research and I did a bit of research about Kristin. And I did it privately, and pulled in a few favors and tried to work out what fitted Kristin well. And through my research I worked out that she really liked Armani. So I also have a friend, a lovely, lovely friend who's a fixer for designer clothes. So I rang my friend and said, "If I take Kristin Scott Thomas into Armani, can they give me discount for Fleabag?" And she said, "Well, we can try." So we tried and they said yes. So I went ahead of time, met Kristin literally the afternoon before she was on camera the next day.

Allie: Oh my God.

Ray Holman: Took her, she was thrilled, because then we were outside Armani on Bond Street, and I'd been racking my guts about my budget. So we went in, and basically there was the whole ensemble, it was on a mannequin. And Kristin said, no, Kristin was really good. She said, "What would you like me to look like?" I said, "What would you like to look like?" She said, "Well look, we could do several outfits in here so you tell me your favorite." And I said, "That thing on the mannequin there, that looks brilliant." And she said, "Let's do it then." So she literally put it on, it was perfect. We got her shoes, we got her handbag, and we got her a coat.

Chrissie: That coat.

Allie: I love that coat.

Ray Holman: I did actually get her a jacket as well, but we decided she didn't need the jacket at all for our story. So that didn't appear. But it was that simple, and very straightforward. And Kristin, I mean, I said, "It's an amazing part, isn't it?" And she said, "Well, you couldn't not do it for that monologue."

Allie: Right.

Chrissie: Oh yeah. And she had two days to memorize that?

Ray Holman: Yeah. Well, less than that. Yeah.

Allie: Wow.

Chrissie: Oh my God.

Ray Holman: And we did, I kind of said, "Are you all right with the pussy bow and the you know, the drama of that outfit?" And she said, "Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Let's just do it." And she felt great because, you know, suddenly I had a character who was being authentic. She was in designer clothes, she was a successful businesswoman in our show. And she was wearing, authentically wearing the thing that worked.

Chrissie: Well and it fits too that she ... when you hear about her character and get these glimpses at her, she isn't like traditionally corporate.

Ray Holman: No.

Chrissie: So that pussy bow is a little bit of a flair that something ... Claire would never wear that.

Ray Holman: No. And that's the thing you see, we also had Claire being corporate.

Allie: Right.

Ray Holman: She was wearing her very traditional, straight-laced business dress. And so you needed Belinda to be more creative really, because Belinda was somebody that Claire looked up to and adored. So that's why that worked so well.

Chrissie: Well yeah because we were saying Belinda's comment to Claire is just, "God, you're tasteful." Which I said isn't necessarily like a raving compliment. Like it's just kind of like well that's a dress. But ... And it also kind of ties into why Belinda and Fleabag kind of hit it off. Because Fleabag's a little left of center, obviously.

Ray Holman: Yes. Yeah. And I think, I just think it worked. And I was really, really pleased that I breathed a sigh of relief because I thought, "What am I going to do with such an amazing actress?" You know, Kristin Scott Thomas, "How am I going to address her on my tiny budget?" And we pulled a few favors, but it worked.

Chrissie: Yeah.

Allie: So turning to Claire, we discussed her business wear, but also what struck me, probably my favorite outfit of Claire's I think is that green blouse when she gets the haircut. So we were ... and we, you know, I don't know how intentional maybe the symbolism was, but it seems like, you know, she's starting this new life that's really emphasized by Anthony's speech. Was there anything behind this like bright green, or was that just ... You know, what was the thinking behind that?

Ray Holman: Well, the thing was, Sian is very into Claire. She knows exactly what Claire would want. And we think now and again that Claire is quite... she's business and corporate, but she's quite boring in her clothes, but they're all really nice. Now and again, she gets things wrong. She tries to be funky, like when she was ... there's a moment in episode two when her sister says to her, "And what are those trainers? Are you, you know, are you trying to be odd?" Because that's Claire's idea of being a bit out there, you know? On-

Allie: Right. The polka dots. Yeah.

Ray Holman: Yeah. And so we did several shops, Sian and I, and we refined her stuff. And she really liked the green silk blouse. So that was it. And then as we filmed more and more, Sian got more and more nervous about the green blouse, because she was feeling like, "Is it really Claire? Is it her?" And I said, "Well, if we feel that it's not Claire, then it should go on her when she has her haircut because she's trying. She's trying to change herself." We know that she's going to go off with Klare and we need to make a visual effort because the whole thing was about her. But it wouldn't have made sense if she'd been in one of her conservative jumper set. So, there was a little bit of feeling. And I think at the end Sian, because I think Sian had her clothes as well, and she said to me, well, I took that green blouse to the charity shop. It's like, "Well, you could have left it for me to put in my stock!”

Chrissie: Oh, man. So, someone's browsing some thrift store, they don't even know they're looking at Claire’s top.

Ray Holman: Yeah. So that was the idea for it, yeah.

Chrissie: And I love at the end that Klare with a K says it looks so good with your top. Like the haircut really ties it all in.

Ray Holman: That's another, you see what people are picking up on is all the risky pieces and the risky pieces and the pieces that you're talking about quite a lot. So you can't... not every piece can be a risky piece. So that those moments are noticed.

Chrissie: So then is the dress she wears at the wedding then kind of her attempting to fit back into this old more demure...

Ray Holman: That's a mixture because we actually went shopping and the first dress that we chose for the wedding was a floral dress. We took photographs and then I showed them to Phoebe and she said, "Are you sure that's right?" And I looked at them again and I said, "Sian, I’m not sure that's right." And Sian and I kind of went, "Well, let's go find something else just to see,” and we had time. So we went to quite a famous department store and they... we chose just loads of dresses and I said, "Maybe it shouldn't be floral. Maybe it should be something else." And the one we ended up with was just on a sale rail and she put it on. And the good thing about that was that it's, what is it? It's neutral. Because of the way the episode is shot, you probably didn't notice which was... did you notice? Did you notice the green bag and the green shoes?

Chrissie: No.

Allie: No.

Ray Holman: So green blouse in episode five with the hair. So we decided there's a nightmare. I don't know why I allowed it to happen. I spent most of my time looking for an emerald green clutch bag with a matching shoes. So we decided to take the green into the wedding outfit and no... just because you didn't see her very much in full length. But if you go back and watch that episode, she said-

Chrissie: Okay. Yeah, if you insist.

Ray Holman: Neutral dress, emerald green shoes and clutch.

Chrissie: Oh, that's fabulous. I love that.

Allie: Love it.

Ray Holman: So a little, yeah. And I watched it and thought, "Oh, well, that's lost then. That's gone. That's another little thing I did that was gone."

Chrissie: We've said this. Every time you watch it, you see something new.

Ray Holman: Yeah.

Chrissie: That's the kind of thing that is it... It's why it stands up to repeated viewing.

Ray Holman: Yeah. Yeah.

Chrissie: Speaking of the wedding, Martin’s suit is very brown, real brown for a wedding.

Ray Holman: Yes, but I think they've upped the colors but basically Martin's whole feeling-- look, because he's an antique dealer, is a little bit seedy, tweedy... and that suit is actually a beautiful tweed suit. So I don't know if you can see because of the way it was shot but it was rust, so it wasn't brown at all because of the end grade. It's looked brown. So it was a rust, a beautiful dark orange-y rusty colored suit with little flecks in it. Little colored flecks. And it was the idea that he's still the sleazy antique dealer but he's put his tweed suit on to go to the wedding. So yeah, there was nothing more than that.

Chrissie: We’ll watch that part again, too.

Allie: Yeah, exactly. So I want to turn to Godmother. I can't believe we haven't talked about Godmother yet, but her... I mean, her outfits are just fabulous and really just shows so much about the character. And you mentioned in interviews and when we did our Q&A that a lot of her pieces have a Japanese influence, like her scarf at the dinner and her kimono at the wedding. So we were wondering, are we supposed to infer that she brought those pieces back from their trip to Japan?

Ray Holman: Yes, yes. I mean, sometimes I have to let things go, but when I first read Godmother in the restaurant scene, I kind of decided I needed Japanese stuff. So I went out and bought some Japanese fabrics, made some head wraps for her, and I knew I had to make a head wrap because she was doing the Crown. I know Olivia very well and I've dressed her for three seasons of Broadchurch and I didn't have any fitting times. The only fitting times I had were the mornings that she was there. I had to fit her before she went to set, so I would always have choices for her. But I did actually make a series of... went overboard, got really expensive Japanese fabric. I bought like a quarter of a meter, you know, of each Japanese fabric. Got it made up. We made them up into head wraps and in my head I wanted that Japanese feeling, but then I did a bit of research and had taken a lot of photographs of kimonos for the wedding, showing them to Phoebe and Phoebe went, "Oh, no." So I thought, "Oh, right. That's me, then." That idea's gone. La, la, la.

Ray Holman: And she said, "I want it to be more rock and roll. I want her to wear a hat and I want her to wear a suit." So I made a suit for Olivia. I made a jade-colored suit with a bright pink lining and a gray fedora, and when she came to see it, she went, "Oh, for goodness sake, I'm not wearing that." I explained it to her. I sent her photographs and she said, "Could you go and talk to Phoebe, then?" Then I said to Phoebe, "Do you remember those kimonos I took a photograph of? I did two mood boards of the kimonos. Do you think that's kind of, you know, where we should go?” And Olivia and Phoebe went, "Yes, that's the way we should go." So in the end, I did get my way. So I've already done the research, I knew where to go. I got the kimono. We then decided she wanted flowers around her head and that was made with glue guns literally the day before. It's from a garden center on a head band, and yeah. So I was really pleased in the end with Godmother's wedding outfit because it felt like my instinct was right. And that's when Phoebe's really good because she let me... I didn't gloat. I just…

Chrissie: If you would like to take this time to gloat, I'd be happy to give you the floor.

Ray Holman: No, no, I was just really please. And the rest of the stuff, the Godmother's clothes, were just... I think one thing I did was I had her in an artist's smock quite a lot with the head wraps and big jewels. One of the things I got for her, which I had to let go, was a vintage Vivienne Westwood artist’s smock with paint all over it. It was quite punky. It was a bit torn with a few safety pins in and stuff like that but it's Vivienne Westwood and I thought it was really cool and it was like a faded denim. But I think Phoebe thought he was going a bit too far… because I just wanted it. I wanted that because I wanted the punky thing in there, but I'd kind of, you know, she wasn't punky. She's not punky. I went a bit too far on that one.

Chrissie: Yeah. One more character thing and then we're going to go to some questions that we got from listeners and we'll try to kind of knock through those. But you mentioned that the one specific outfit for dad was the wedding suit.

Ray Holman: Yes.

Chrissie: And you said the original note that his collar was even more dramatic.

Ray Holman: Yeah. In the original note, he was wearing a ruff...

Chrissie: What is that?

Ray Holman: It’s an Elizabethan collar. And I've got some mood boards of ruffs, which I showed to Phoebe and I said, "Is this what you mean?" She was like, "Oh, my father's going to so kill me." I said, "Right." But, anyway, I found the trendy suit, Oliver Spencer again. I knew where that was. I knew the Godmother would go to Oliver Spencer, very East London, very trendy for a man of a certain age. And then I decided that I would take the ruff idea and pleat some fabric to the inside collars. So that again, it made sense. So if I'd had a big ruff, it would have gone to a different kind of comedy value. So I needed to understate it. And when Phoebe saw that, she said, "Yeah, this is exactly it." Not the big clown outfit, you know? But there was a point in the script where it was alluded to in dialogue but that got cut. So the dialogue got cut. So nobody knows why dad was wearing a ruff in the end.

Allie: I think it worked.

Chrissie: We also, just as a side note, love when he comments to them of just saying nice skirts.

Ray Holman: Nice what?

Chrissie: When he just goes, "Nice skirts."

Ray Holman: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chrissie: Anyway. All right, we can do some kind of quick hit listener questions because I know we're running pretty long. So Joanne has a question. Do you have any favorite costume items that didn't end up getting used or didn't make the final cut?

Ray Holman: No. And in fact we used most of them. Let me think, what didn't get used? I think we used most things. I think all the things that we rejected or we didn't use, then there was a good reason for that. So I think all the good things were used, and we didn't talk about Phoebe's funeral outfit, which was the hardest thing but that was just... that was basically… the long and short of that story was that we needed to land on the proper theme. The proper ‘her looking good but not oversexualizing herself for her mother's funeral.’ And we were all really tired at that point. And Phoebe hadn't thought very much about it and I think I gave her too many choices but she ended up wearing the choice number one.  And so that was the end of that but it was a little bit... that was hard, and there were several other really good funeral outfits, but the one we got was the best one. And she texted me later after she'd gone on to set and said, "I'm so sorry I couldn't decide. Absolutely, we made the right decision.”

Allie: That's nice. That's gratifying.

Chrissie: Just listen to Ray is the theme of this interview.

Ray Holman: No, no…

Allie: So we had another listener question. Adrian asked if you had to go to Italy to find a proper plum.

Ray Holman: A proper plum. [Laughs]. No. I went to Angels, the costumiers.

Allie: Little more local.

Ray Holman: Yeah, a little bit more local. They've got a little bit of Italy there.

Allie: One quick thing as we wrap up, we read an article about your costume choices for Doctor Who, that you like to incorporate, like, a signature extra, the red button, to costumes for the show. Did you do anything like that for Fleabag? Like a little call-out?

Ray Holman: In fact, they were doing a Doctor Who watch-along, you know, lockdown watch-along, and Steven Moffat tweeted last night, “signature red button from Ray Holman. He did it with Sherlock, with a buttonhole.” And I kind of looked at it and thought, "Oh, yeah." I haven't done the signature thing for a little while. I think it may come out on the next series though of Doctor Who, but I haven't done it for a little while. I'm waiting for my moment.

Allie: I'm sure it's got to work just right.

Ray Holman: Yeah. It's got to be the right thing.

Allie: Yeah. Did you keep any particular costume or prop for posterity after Fleabag?

Ray Holman: I have got quite a lot. There's quite a lot of it was mine. I also, I ended up with Belinda's clothes because they used so much of my stock. We had a little sale and we sold as much as we could. We gave all the main characters– Phoebe had all of Fleabag's, Sian had all of Claire's, Andrew had what he could of Priest. So we did a whole, ‘what would you like?’ moment?. I still have the kimono and I'm really pleased. Every time I look at it, I look at it fondly because I think, "Oh, Olivia." So I have bits and pieces.

Chrissie: Anything that reminds you of Olivia Colman is a good thing.

Ray Holman: Yeah.

Chrissie: You obviously have some experience... you’ve talked about the ups and downs of the fandom with Doctor Who. When did you realize that Fleabag had developed its own fandom and how popular it had become?

Ray Holman: It was really strange because I was quite busy designing on Doctor Who, and as Fleabag broadcast and we watched each episode–and it sounds really awful, but every time I saw a new episode of Fleabag, we kind of went, "Wow, that was even better," and, "Wow. Have you seen that? Have you watched that again?" And so I think it's quite a dense show in that you can watch it and watch it and watch it and you always see something new. And I was kind of ignor– I wasn't ignoring it, but it was when Phoebe texted me about the jumpsuit. I think I suddenly… I did actually take a deep breath and go, "Oh, here we go again." Because you know, there's Captain Jack's coat, there's Matt Smith's tweed, there's Sherlock's coat, you know, there's Jodie Whittaker’s first woman Doctor, and I kind of went, "Oh, I didn't mean to do that."

Allie: Oh, darn.

Ray Holman: Well, it's all good.

Chrissie: What about, I think it was Jenny who said watching all the award wins, that that seemed to really be the capper on like, "Okay, this is huge now." The first one was the Emmy's, which was arguably the biggest. Were you watching those live or how did you...

Ray Holman: Strangely enough, before that, I had an actor who will remain nameless, on Doctor Who, who came over from LA and I was fitting him and I was talking... I can't remember why it came up, but we said something about Phoebe or he mentioned her. And I said, "Oh, I did Fleabag with Phoebe." And he said, "You what?" And I said, "Yeah, I did Fleabag with Phoebe." And he said, "Just go to LA now." He said, "Tell them you're the Fleabag guy. You'll be fine. Go to LA." This is before any of the awards. And I looked at him, I thought, "What is he talking about?" But I didn't really realize that it was such a big hit in America and Canada and in those territories. And I remember saying to Simon, my assistant, "He says that we should just go to LA and tell people that we did Fleabag and we'll be fine." And we're like, "What's he on about?" And then of course the award season started happening. But that we... I think with that, we were really, really pleased for Phoebe. It was about Phoebe.

Allie: Why do you think it's resonated so strongly with so many people all over the world?

Ray Holman: It's really tricky, isn't it? Because it's honest. I think it's just honest and it's sexually honest and it's honest about how vulnerable a woman can be, how vulnerable human beings are, how cruel they are to each other, how... what is love? So it deals with very human things. And I don't know if there's anything comparable to it. There are lots of women-led comedies and dramas and... You know, for example, like, I love Russian Doll. I think it's amazing, but it doesn't deal with the things that Fleabag deals with that you can associate with, that you can also buy into and you think, "Oh, yeah, I felt that too." So it's in that way, it's almost every woman, isn't it? And every person?

Chrissie: That's just it. Not even just every woman.

Ray Holman: No, we don't... I was just going to say we don't have to be gender-specific about that. It's every person.

Allie: Yeah, we are all Fleabag.

Ray Holman: Yeah.

Chrissie: We get so many... on our Facebook group just we have an entry question just to kind of keep bots out and whatever. And it's just “What does Fleabag mean to you?” And so many people hit that theme of “she speaks things that I didn't know how to say myself or I see myself in her.” You know, she finally-
Ray Holman: She's is universal.

Allie: Yes.

Chrissie: Yes.

Allie: Yeah. So last question and we are so grateful for so much of your time, but what... we ask this to everybody that we've interviewed. What is a standout memory for you from working on Fleabag? Like what's the story you'll be telling when you're 80 that that will resonate with you?

Ray Holman: There's quite a few... let me think. Let me think about this one. I think the standout story is the story of the morning that Phoebe and I could not land on the funeral outfit and that's not... I don't mean that negatively. I mean it in a very loving way, in that I was really worried for her. She was really worried for me. We were really tired. It's not a... it wasn't funny. We were like, what are we going... are going to do this wrong? What's going to happen? But we did it. We did it. And I was really, really concerned and when she got into the car to go to set, I thought, "I'm not going to go after her." It's like almost like ‘let your children go,’ do you know what I mean? Let her flow. She's chosen this, let's see if we get any repercussions from this outfit. And we didn't. I got a text saying, “You were absolutely right. Thank you for dealing with me.” And it wasn't an adverse thing. It was something that probably brought us closer together because we were both trying to do the right thing for the show. But we hadn't spent enough time concentrating on that moment because we were so busy until the moment came. So that's a bit of a weird story, isn't it?

Allie: No, it's lovely. I think it's lovely.

Chrissie: Absolutely.

Allie: You're on the same team and you're working... you know?

Ray Holman: Yeah, yeah. And I can remember sitting down and I nearly cried and I went, "Oh, it is the right thing." And then the moment I saw the publicity photograph from that episode where she's standing at the altar with the chiffon sleeves and the light shining through it. I kind of went, "See, stop doubting yourself." So to Phoebe, I sent it to Phoebe, “Got to stop doubting ourselves.”

Chrissie: I love that story because I feel like the theme of this whole, like with Fleabag or just… you realize these are just groups of people working together to make something, hoping other people will respond to it, but in that moment you guys are just trying to solve a problem together.

Ray Holman: Yes. Yeah. And make it right.

Chrissie: Yeah, and it's a series of moments of alchemy like that that resulted in what we got. Yeah, so I feel like I want to set up weekly talks with you. I feel like I could talk to you for hours.

Allie: But we will let you go.

Ray Holman: It’s been lovely.

Allie: Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for giving us so much of your time and your insight and we are so excited to get this out to our listeners who I know will be just thrilled.

Ray Holman: What will you do? Will you edit it? Will it be in installments?

Chrissie: Ray, our episode about season two episode six is almost four hours long. It takes longer to listen to that episode than to watch all of season two.

Ray Holman: Cool, cool.

Allie: But we’ve gotten good feedback! People are into it.

Chrissie: Here’s my favorite–one of the reviews on iTunes actually says, "If you don't understand why this episode is four hours long, you don't deserve to be a Fleabag fan."

Ray Holman: Oh well, that's good.

Allie: Exactly. So, yeah, I think this is on the short side for us.

Chrissie: But we'll let you know when it's up.

Allie: Yes, we will. Thank you again.

Chrissie: Thank you so much, Ray.

Ray Holman: Thank you. I look forward to it.

Allie: Stay safe and well, and enjoy the banana bread!

Ray Holman: I hope everybody can understand my Welsh accent.

Chrissie: Oh, absolutely. Do you know how many people from the Q&A were like, "I just want to listen to that accent"?

Ray Holman: Oh, really?

Chrissie: Yes. Yeah.

Ray Holman: Oh, well. Good.

Chrissie: It's lovely.

Ray Holman: All right.

Chrissie: All right. Have a great evening, Ray.

Ray Holman: Bye-bye.

Allie: All right, bye.